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Biznik Live connects you with nationally recognized authors whose powerful ideas will help you make successful choices for your business. And today at the last show I’m really excited, to be honest with you guys, because this author we have today is the author of my favorite business book possibly of all time, but at least of books that I read last year. It did come out a few years ago. And we’ll be talking with him mostly about his book “A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future”. But let me tell you a little bit more about Dan Pink before we get started.

Dan’s articles on business and technology appear in many publications including The New York Times, Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, and Wire Magazine, where he is a contributing editor. He’s provided analysis of business trends on CNN, CNBC, ABC, NPR and other networks in the U.S. and abroad. He also lectures to corporations, associations and universities around the world on economic transformation in the new workplace.

So how are you doing there, Daniel?

Dan Pink: Leif, I’m great! I’m not at Disney property but I’m still having a good time here in my home office in Washington, D.C.

Leif Hansen: Yeah. And I know you’re probably glad you’re not here in Disney World, right?

Dan Pink: Yes, I am glad because I don’t find myself getting a lot of writing done in Disney World.

Leif Hansen: Yeah, that’s true. Well, you know, I’ll come back to Disney World actually because I went on a ride yesterday called the Spaceship Earth and I’ve got to say, it incorporates every one of those six senses that–

Dan Pink: Really?

Leif Hansen: –you talk about in your book and I was pretty impressed about that. I was thinking about that while I was there. So, why don’t you start off with those of our audience members who have not read “A Whole New Mind” and tell us a bit about it?

And the gist of it is that I argue that the abilities that used to matter most, what we might think of as the left-brain abilities–the logical, linear, sequential, analytical, SAT abilities–those abilities still matter, but they actually matter relatively less. And a different set of abilities, abilities that we might associate more with the right side of our brain–artistry, empathy, inventiveness, big-picture thinking–those are now the abilities that matter most. Those are now the abilities that are really the game changers. Those are the abilities that are marking the fault line between who moves ahead and who falls behind. I think it’s particularly true in this economy and I think it’s particularly true for small- and medium-sized businesses.

Leif Hansen: Dan, tell us why particularly for small- and medium-sized businesses.

Now by Asia I mean off-shoring of white collar work. And basically, right now, when you have legions of white-collar workers in places like India or the Philippines or Malaysia or in China willing to work for, say, a fourth of the cost of workers in the United States, certain kinds of routine–and that’s the key word here–’routine’ white-collar work, certain kinds of accounting, certain kinds of programming, certain kinds of financial analysis are now just racing to the cheapest cost provider.

And so if you are in a business where you’re doing routine white-collar work, that is, white-collar work that you can reduce to a script or a spec sheet set of rules, it’s a goner. That kind of work is a commodity right now. And as more and more companies, large and small, look to cut cost in this recession, even more of this routine white-collar work is going to go over there. So that’s Asia.

So you see it now, since we’re heading into tax season, with tax preparation. There were a million U.S. tax returns done in India last year, but 20-something million done on TurboTax, a 20G/dollar download, because software can do certain kinds of rule-based work better than you and I can.

And again, companies large and small looking to save money, they’re going to try to automate as much as this routine work as possible, so that’s that.

If you just look at the data, you have in this country more automobiles than you have licensed drivers. Ninety-eight percent of American homes have a color TV set. Each household has roughly an average of 2.5 people and 2.7 television sets. When I was born, color television sets were in about 1% of American households.

I mean, you have things like the self-storage industry. An industry devoted to housing people’s extra stuff is a 22.6-billion-dollar-a-year business in this country. I mean, it’s just crazy.

And so, I guess I don’t mean to rant about this, but when we compare what’s going on right now, which is bad–let’s be honest, it’s bad–but it’s not the Great Depression. In the Great Depression, there was not a self-storage industry. People weren’t worried about, “Oh, what can I do with my extra stuff?”

Dan Pink: I think there’s a little bit of that, but I think what’s happening with abundance right now–let’s look at it from both the consumer’s perspective and from the business perspective.

I think right now consumers are not going to be in an abundance where, let’s be honest, they’re scared, but they’re living a fairly abundant life. They’re not going to open up their wallets for tiny incremental advances in products or services. They’re going to open up their wallets for big, bold conceptual breakthroughs. And so there’s an even greater premium on that kind of thinking in a world of abundance. In a world of abundance, where people’s material needs are satisfied and oversatisfied, there’s a premium on giving people something new, on iterating something that people didn’t know were missing.

And I think that actually what’s interesting about that, especially given these times, and this gets to your earlier question, Leif, from several minutes ago because I’ve gone on a little joyride around to this.

Leif Hansen: No, we like it. It’s a good one.

Dan Pink: Typically, the big breakthrough innovations occur during periods like this. And they often don’t come from the big players. They come from the small folks who are willing to take a risk, who are willing to zig when everybody is zagging, who is looking at this moment of apparent crisis as actually a moment of opportunity.

Now, what everybody seems to forget here is–because I go on and talk to businesses and it’s, “Oh, yeah, I kind of agree there with what you’re saying but no way I would ever do anything like that now. It’s too tumultuous out there. It’s too scary out there. Look, the unemployment rate is up, the stock market is down, the whole country’s feeling jittery. No way I would launch anything like that right now.” What they fail to do is take three minutes to look it up and find the true facts, which is that the iPod was introduced on October 23, 2001, six weeks to the day after 9/11. Unemployment was up.

Dan Pink: The stock market was down. The whole country was feeling jittery.

Leif Hansen: Wow.

Dan Pink: And this always happens. I mean, we’ve seen this movie before and it’s going to happen. And I think Apple in some ways have the exception in this regard when Steve Jobs came back. The return of Steve Jobs actually in some ways restored that sort of small business entrepreneurial mentality back to Apple, which had gone adrift for eight or nine years in his absence. But it’s the small guys who are going to birth these new things. And so I think it’s a really great opportunity right now to do the kind of big breakthrough things.

And I think it’s just a great, great time for people to do something big and bold and amazing. And I think it’s essentially guaranteed that the sorts of things, the sorts of innovation, the sorts of business-changing breakthroughs that are going to be on the cover of business magazines and that you and I are going to be talking about and that are going to be in our homes and offices or services that we’re using five years from now are going to be birthed during this time.

Leif Hansen: Wow. You’ve completely converted me.

[Laughter]

Dan Pink: Good!

Leif Hansen: No, I mean, that’s a really good point.

Dan Pink: It’s not a question of–yeah. Again, I’m like the ultimate–I mean, the strange thing is, even though I think that the scales are tilting in favor of these right-brain abilities, that’s actually personally a bit of a struggle for me because I’m a very left-brain person.

Dan Pink: Well, I’m trying to! I mean, you’re right, that’s a good point. I mean, I’m trying to sort of drink my own Kool-Aid, eat my own dog food, choose the cliché that you prefer.

Leif Hansen: You have the response to that, then?

Dan Pink: To the business book, that graphic novel?

Leif Hansen: Yeah.

Dan Pink: It’s been quite good. “The Adventures of Johnny Bunko” is a 160-page graphic novel, as you know, Leif. It’s a comic, book-length comic. And it’s a career guide that tells the story of a guy named Johnny Bunko who’s stuck at a bad job, and through his trials and tribulations and six pairs of magic chopsticks he learns the six key lessons of any satisfying productive career.

The response has been surprisingly good for something that’s a little bit ‘out there’. In fact–I mean, this is sort of both a point of pride but also a point of sadness–is that “The Adventures of Johnny Bunko” had gotten far better reviews than any book I’ve ever written.

Dan Pink: Which is a good thing and a bad thing. Yeah, exactly. It’s like, hmm, that’s sort of a double-edged message there.

Leif Hansen: Yeah. Well I can see the number of us who were already somewhat on the creative side or had a hunch that what you were saying was true. And I’m going to go ahead and just summarize. The six senses that you talk about, Dan, that need to be either developed more or focused on are Design, Story, Symphony, or kind of a sense of seeing the bigger picture and how they connect…

Dan Pink: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Leif Hansen: …Empathy, Play and Meaning. And the question that I had for you, and I think a number of us do is, how bold–I mean, obviously you’ve been bold, but if you are already excited about these values and these characteristics, whatever you want to call them, and you’re working with businesses, some of us are afraid to be bold. Some of us are afraid to say, “Yeah, our consulting and our coaching is playful.” Or “We believe in more meaningful values.” Or “We come from a–” you know, should you go ahead and be bold from a marketing perspective or do you sneak these things in?

And the other point that’s very good here, or at least implicit in your question, I think, is a very, very kind of cautionary tale, which is that when I talk about these six abilities that you just listed, in business terms they’re means, not ends. The ends are results, so ultimately you should be–if you’re in a, let’s say, professional service firm, you are in the business of delivering extraordinary breathtaking solutions to your clients.

Now, again, it’s a little bit of a fine line in that you don’t want to compromise. You can’t be all things to all people. You shouldn’t be all things to all people. Being all things to all people is just a horrifically bad business strategy.

Leif Hansen: That’s good. That’s good.

[Laughter]

Leif Hansen: Well, you were obviously bold and it’s tricky to know. I guess you just have to do some research. You were obviously–

Dan Pink: Well, yes and no. “Johnny Bunko”, let’s talk about it. I mean, let’s talk about the–I mean, it seems superficially bold, but let’s talk about the pragmatic side of it. I mean, I came to it in a somewhat very, very left-brain way.

For instance, I spent some time in Japan on a fellowship in 2007 and noticed that manga there, you know, comics there are used for everything, not just for stories for kids but for business advice, for romance, for cooking, for a whole suite of things, and we here in the U.S. have a very constricted notion of what comics can do. And here is empirical proof in this other country that comics can be used for a whole variety of topics and genres in the same way that television can be used for a whole variety of topics and genres.

And so you have to look at what–I mean, Google can do a lot of things that books can’t, and so I think a smart writer has to ask him or herself, “Well, what can a book do that Google can’t?” And I think that books can do certain things like narrative and strategic advice.

And so there was a sort of pragmatic cast to this apparent boldness here. I mean, there was actually some business logic. “Listen. Wow, wouldn’t it be groovy to do a comic book?” That’s bold, but that’s not pragmatic enough.

Dan Pink: Right now? Is that emphasis on the ‘right now’?

Leif Hansen: Yeah. And what topics. I mean, you can take that a few ways. I’m not quite sure, but it may be which of the senses or what particular topics.

Dan Pink: Yeah, yeah. No, it’s kind of an interesting question. It probably merits more than 140 characters to ask.

[Laughter]

Dan Pink: So it really depends on what the question means by topics. I think that right now is… Let’s talk about two things. Number one, I think, is Empathy. And I think that this is a very good moment right now for people not to abandon their relationship-building but actually to intensify it because, first of all, I think people have a little bit more time on their hands, and second of all, your relationships–and again, I don’t mean sort of B.S. Networking in Business, I mean truly having relationships with people and helping people and being authentic and those sorts of things.

I think the other ability that’s quite important here is the Symphony ability, to really take a step back and take a look at the big picture of one’s own business and what one is offering and ask are you doing the right things and are you doing it in the right way.

I think the other thing, which is very much a left-brain thing and unfortunately it’s the sort of thing that people need to be working on in advance, is some measure of frugality and smart budgeting. I mean, that’s some extent. If you face that issue right now, it’s a little bit too late. It’s not cataclysmically too late. But that’s a very pragmatic left-brain thing.

Leif Hansen: Great! Thanks. We have a question here from Morgan Rich on Blog Talk Radio. And his question is, “Innovative products i.e the iPod, great, but how about innovative services?”

Leif Hansen: You’ve got to make examples for coaching or student developer or alternative skills. What kind of examples for innovative services?

Dan Pink: Oh! Services are a… Yeah, I don’t mean to neglect services because services are a–if you look at the GDP, services are a bare contributor to the GDP. And also the thing about services is that they have higher margins, so they’re better businesses. And so it could be all kinds of things.

I think that there is–in the world of personal coaching, I think that we haven’t even begun to scratch the surface of coaching and personal development and advice using the online world. I don’t think we’ve come anywhere close to that. I think we’re going to look back on that and say, “This is so unbelievably primitive what we’re doing here right now.”

Leif Hansen: Don’t tempt me to go off and do some self-promotion here, first things I’m working on, Dan.

Dan Pink: No, go ahead! No, no. But you know what I’m talking about, right?

Leif Hansen: Yeah, no, I hear you. I hear you.

Dan Pink: I think that the world of…call it education, learning, teaching, coaching, advice, personal development, I think that we have not come anywhere close to seeing a model or an effective way to use those sorts of technologies. And I think the people who figure that out are going to have a huge, huge impact on the world. And I think we’re going to look back on how we do that right now and say, “Man, that was primitive.”

Dan Pink: So it’s things like, “Oh, isn’t it glorious that Yale has its courses?” I mean, I say this because Yale has this thing called open courses, Yale Open Course thing, where they put up some of their lectures online. And so I happen to have on my iPhone some lectures from Robert Shiller, the economist. I think, “Wow, how cool is that!” But, again, I think that we’re going to look–I’m like, “Wow, so cool, I have a Robert Shiller lecture on my iPhone.”

Leif Hansen: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I mean, one of the great things about Biznik–just a quick little plug about Biznik for those of you that are on–is the fact that they are innovative in how they’re combining real-time events for supporting people in building their business with those online tools–you know, the traditional forms and articles and things like that. Because the community and real learning and productivity happens when you have a community that’s both in real time and online like that. So, people that can offer that.

Dan Pink: Yeah. Biznik is a great example. I mean, I can give a–was that the handle of the question, Morgan…

Leif Hansen: Ah, yes. Morgan Rich.

Dan Pink: Morgan Rich. So, I wonder if that person’s name is Morgan Rich or Rich Morgan. But in any event, Morgan Rich.

[Laughter]

Dan Pink: Two things. One, I’ll just sort of throw this out there. I think that we have not come anywhere close to figuring out effective businesses and business models for the array of personal data, a data about ourselves that we’re creating.

Leif Hansen: Right.

Dan Pink: Think about like, wow, I basically have my own little data set if I really was intesely interested in knowing my running numbers. And I do. I’m really only interested in knowing my weekly and monthly mileage.

Leif Hansen: Oh yes, I use that too.

Dan Pink: Yeah! And so I love using that. I love using that because, like, “Holy Moly, I spent 87 hours on email and none on Word? Oops, this book is not getting done!”

And so those are just–and I think there is a sort of array of data whether it’s on health, whether it’s on diet, whether it is on exercise, whether it is on use of computer applications, whether it’s on who we talk to, just we’re creating so much data out there that there isn’t a great service to help me make sense of that. And so, I mean I think that’s a huge opportunity out there.

And one other piece of advice for Morgan Rich, and all your listeners and legions of Twitter followers, is a site, one of my favorite sites, and I just subscribed to the free newsletter called Springwise. Springwise.com, which every week has a list of–they have this kind of network of people around the world who look for new business ideas basically. “Ooh, I’m walking down the streets of Helsinki and wow, look at this interesting idea for a pancake house!”

Leif Hansen: Oh, it’s great.

[Laughter]

Dan Pink: And, again, none of these things–Running Ahead, Rescue Time, Springwise–I have the absolutely no commercial involvement in them. I just want to be clear. I have no involvement in them at all. I’m just a satisfied customer of free products.

Dan Pink: Right, right. Springwise is really good, and I think for your listeners and followers, Leif. It’s really useful.

Leif Hansen: Excellent. So you hear that. Check out Springwise. Also it reminds me a little bit about a site called Idea Blog, but…

So, two things. One, just to confirm, because I’m realizing that I actually know Morgan, and so it is Morgan Rich, and he’s in Portland and has a life-coaching–very creative like me into much more interactive, playful ways of coaching and consulting and working with people. So, just to clarify that.

The next question we had actually was from John Lewis. And he says, “There is a possible irony dillema that the software industry is potentially at the forefront of innovation, yet software is very poor at serving right-brained activities. Any views on that?”

Leif Hansen: Poor at serving right brain. So I think he’s basically saying, software, they’re at the forefront of innovation technology and yet it tends to be very left-brained, the very fact that it’s software and it’s automated and it’s technology is left brain and has a harder time serving right brain, doing right-brain activities. Do you think that’s true and any thoughts on that?

Dan Pink: Yes and no. Yes and no. I mean, I think that the really great–if you look at the level of programming, I mean, you talk to programmers. First of all, one of the things about programmers–and I don’t know much about this, I only know it from talking to them–is that the difference between a good programmer and a great programmer is orders of magnitude. It’s not, “Ooh, you’re incrementally better.”

It’s like, the difference between good and great among programmers is orders of magnitude. And the difference is usually not the left brain abilities. It’s really the right brain activities, particularly the Symphony ability, the ability to see the big picture. To some extent the Design ability, the ability to fashion elegant solutions in some ways. And that–you hear computer scientists talking about this–in some ways it’s that the really, really talented programmers, the really breakthrough programmers, the ones who are worth a hundred ham-and-egger programmers, they have a certain kind of aesthetic capability that the other ones don’t.

Leif Hansen: Yeah.

Dan Pink: So there’s like huge opportunities being left on the table there. Even if to some extent, if you look at Linux is what I think is an amazing phenomenon in a number of different ways. I think one of the barriers to the wide adapatation of Linux is right brain, and that is basically someone like me is not going to use Linux. It’s a little too hard.

Dan Pink: But if it had different usability and a different interface and some empathic design and some people expert in human factors, it might be able to actually be even bigger than it is right now.

Leif Hansen: So maybe it’s fair to say that his statement has been true but we’re seeing a shift to where that’s changing and one of the examples is obviously the big leap in Apple right now, and iPhone and their emphasis on design, they’re making an easy connection, and the way they end the story, their products. And so, there’s definitely a more playfulness–I mean, all those elements are there.

Leif Hansen: Maybe it’s something with shifting. Dan, one more question, because I know we’re beyond the time promised, and then a chance for you to share anything else that might be remaining. What have you seen since writing your book–how long has it been now?

Dan Pink: The book came out in… The paperback edition came out two and a half years ago.

Leif Hansen: Two and a half years ago, okay. So about a huge chunk of time, but still enough time to kind of look back and go, “Hmm, where were my predictions off?” Or “What could I have added?” Or “I wish I had said this.” Where would you kind of have it filled in, or what patterns and predictions have you seen kind of come true?

Dan Pink: Well, one thing would be that I didn’t make clear enough in the book that places like the United States or the U.K. or Australia or Western Europe or Japan–it’s not like those countries, our country, has a permanent hold on these right-brain abilities, and so I would’ve made that even clear. And what you see right now, which is kind of surprising, is places like India and places like China going through this kind of left-brain to right-brain migration exceedingly quickly.

We need to offer our consulting services that are more high-touch rather than purely high-tech. And so in other words, this transition took place in maybe half a career. You have young Indians who started out doing pure left-brain work when they got out of university and six or seven years into their career are making this kind of switch to more right-brain stuff.

Dan Pink: You know? And that’s not happening in huge numbers but ultimately I think that it raises everybody up the ladder.

Leif Hansen: Yes. That’s good. I’m curious–this isn’t really related to what you just said–but as far as things coming true, would you say that the whole Obama campaign is almost like a nice pat on the back for all of the emphasis within his campaign on those values?

Dan Pink: Sure! And I think it’s an interesting question. I think that good politicians have always in many ways embody the six abilities of Empathy and Design and Story and Meaning and Symphony and Play, and I think that he certainly did. I mean, he developed in some ways a new business model, a somewhat new financing model for campaigns. He basically had a great sense of meaning, great sense of purpose. I think he’s a brilliant synthesizer.

[Laughter]

Leif Hansen: There’s something’s wrong with it. No, I’m just kidding. Well, any last things that you’d like to plug? Things that you’re excited about right now, whether it’s a website or a project or a new book or your comic book, that you’d like to share with us?

Dan Pink: Well, I’m still excited about “The Adventures of Johnny Bunko”. I think it’s a cool little project and I think we’re going to be doing more in this format at some point in the next couple of years.

And then I’m also working on another book about the science of motivation. And that’s proving to be a really interesting topic and I’d love to hear from readers or listeners in particular if they’re doing kind of radical experiments within their firm to give workers, the people there, gigantic amounts of autonomy to essentially let them do whatever they want, anywhere they want, whether it’s…

Dan Pink: Yeah, exactly. Google 20 Percent is kind of the embodiment of that. There’s a move in some companies called ROWE, Results Only Work Environment, but I’m interested in–everybody knows about Google, I’m interested in–I think the smaller enterprises often end up doing more innovative things in that regard. And so I’m interested in how they’re configuring. So folks can email me at dp@danpink.com or twitter me at @danielpink.

Leif Hansen: Great! And I know that you often call for questions over on your blog at danpink.com.

Dan Pink: Yeah! Yeah, yeah. And readers are just amazingly generous and smart, much smarter than I am. I was curious about–I wanted to do a little bit of writing about amateur athletes and what motivates them, so I asked that. I probably got literally a hundred suggestions for amazing amateur athletes, some of them I wouldn’t have been able to find otherwise.

Dan Pink: Yes.

Leif Hansen: Well, Dan, we definitely speak for a number of people who’ve talked about your books over here on the West Coast and just really love the work you’re doing. I personally found it incredibly affirming for the style that I’m trying to do, sort of integrating left and right and online and offline and, you know, a lot more interactive stuff.

Dan Pink: That’s what gets me up in the morning is and gets me through the days when I stare at a blank page with a blinking cursor and wonder why I chose this mind-wrecking trade of writing books so that I can throw an idea out there and maybe someone’s life gets a tiny little bit better because of it.

Leif Hansen: Oh, I know a number of us have. And keep writing it and I look forward to reading “Bunko” as well. And thanks to the rest of you for joining us today. If you can find out more, as we said, about Dan Pink, his blog, and other stuff at danpink.com. Find out more about Biznik at biznik.com and hook up with all of us there. Dan, we’d like to offer you a free lifetime membership there at Biznik, so hopefully you’ll find being over there as well.

Thanks everybody for joining us and we’ll let you know if and when Biznik Live starts up again. It’s been a wonderful series. And you can always get the archives from past shows by going to biznik.com/about/live. Have a great rest of the week, everybody! Bye bye.